WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.190 Hugh and Daniel, 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:04.780 you're going to tell me who you are and introduce yourself, 00:00:04.780 --> 00:00:08.750 and tell us a bit about how you became interested in storytelling. 00:00:08.750 --> 00:00:11.840 So Hugh, perhaps you could go first? 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:19.990 Yes, I'm Hugh Lupton and I've been telling stories for more than 20 years. 00:00:19.990 --> 00:00:23.730 I think I first became interested in storytelling, 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:26.360 and first discovered I was any good at it, 00:00:26.360 --> 00:00:28.710 when I was at boarding school. 00:00:28.710 --> 00:00:30.450 And at night we'd be in dormitories, 00:00:30.450 --> 00:00:34.680 the lights would be turned off and we'd try and make each other laugh, 00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:36.950 and we'd try and scare each other, 00:00:36.950 --> 00:00:40.480 and I discovered that I was quite good at it. 00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:47.180 And that was probably my first experience of telling stories to entertain other people. 00:00:47.180 --> 00:00:49.510 Later on, I got – 00:00:49.510 --> 00:00:50.870 when I was in my teens – 00:00:50.870 --> 00:00:53.090 I got very interested in the ballads, 00:00:53.090 --> 00:00:55.960 these songs that tell stories, 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:02.200 and it was from those that I started actually telling stories as a living. 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:04.000 And Daniel, what about you? 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.160 I'm Daniel Morden. 00:01:06.160 --> 00:01:11.680 I think for me, the time when I got really interested in storytelling 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:17.110 was when my father and mother used to read to me before I went to sleep. 00:01:17.110 --> 00:01:22.070 I can remember my father reading me some of a story called The Hobbit. 00:01:22.070 --> 00:01:26.490 And he was describing a moment where the hero, Bilbo, 00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:30.350 is under the ground in a cave and it's very very dark, 00:01:30.350 --> 00:01:34.400 and something comes out of the dark towards him. 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:39.350 And I can remember being fascinated by this image in my mind's eye, 00:01:39.350 --> 00:01:45.450 this image that was being created by the words my father was saying. 00:01:45.450 --> 00:01:49.250 And after that I began to make up stories as much as I possibly could, 00:01:49.250 --> 00:01:50.870 so if I went for a walk, 00:01:50.870 --> 00:01:53.530 I'd talk to myself making up a story. 00:01:53.530 --> 00:01:58.330 Sometimes I'd have to go for a longer walk 00:01:58.330 --> 00:02:02.520 in order to finish off the story because I was dying to find out what happened next, 00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:06.250 even though I was making the story up as I went along. 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:10.410 Some of those walks must have been quite long, I guess. 00:02:10.410 --> 00:02:12.740 What about the Greeks, though, Daniel? 00:02:12.740 --> 00:02:16.700 How did you get interested in the Ancient Greeks? 00:02:16.700 --> 00:02:21.530 Well, I used to read a lot of comics as well as books, 00:02:21.530 --> 00:02:24.150 and I would read them in the same way, 00:02:24.150 --> 00:02:28.280 I would read the myths of Ancient Greece with the gods and goddesses 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:32.870 in the same way that I would read stories of Spiderman and Superman and Batman. 00:02:32.870 --> 00:02:37.180 In both the stories of Greek gods and goddesses and the comics, 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:40.880 there were these super-powered characters who could do incredible things, 00:02:40.880 --> 00:02:44.260 but would often make tremendously foolish mistakes, 00:02:44.260 --> 00:02:47.550 and would behave just like we behave. 00:02:47.550 --> 00:02:54.090 And so, they weren't that different for me from superheroes. 00:02:54.090 --> 00:02:56.600 Hugh, what about you? 00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:01.070 I think the first thing that got me enthusiastic about the Greek stories 00:03:01.070 --> 00:03:03.540 was when we did a school play 00:03:03.540 --> 00:03:06.960 and we did the story from the Odyssey of the Cyclops, 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.150 the blinding of the Cyclops. 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:11.780 And I was at a school in Cambridge, 00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:15.620 and to introduce the play they invited an old man, 00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:18.180 the provost of King's College, 00:03:18.180 --> 00:03:21.620 an old scholar with long white hair. 00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:25.080 And he was asked to do an introduction, 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:27.640 but as he was doing the introduction to the play, 00:03:27.640 --> 00:03:30.980 he got completely carried away by the story. 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:34.050 And he must have spent about 45 minutes 00:03:34.050 --> 00:03:39.560 telling the whole story of Odysseus and the Cyclops before the play even started. 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.070 And I remember he had his walking stick, 00:03:42.070 --> 00:03:46.000 and he was enacting the blinding of the Cyclops with his walking stick, 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.420 and occasionally he would wave his stick in the air going 00:03:48.420 --> 00:03:52.980 "Odysseus the wily one, the wily one, the wily one". 00:03:52.980 --> 00:03:57.410 And his introduction was far better than the school play. 00:03:57.410 --> 00:04:02.080 And I remember going home afterwards and finding the book and reading the adventures of Odysseus, 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.100 and those stories led into other stories. 00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:09.400 And I got very enthusiastic about the Greek stories — 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.450 I suppose I was about 9 or 10. 00:04:13.450 --> 00:04:17.820 And this story of the war with Troy comes before the story of Odysseus. 00:04:17.820 --> 00:04:22.720 So, when did you first come across this story of the war with Troy? 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.090 Well, I knew bits of the story of the war with Troy at about that time, 00:04:26.090 --> 00:04:27.920 things like the Trojan horse – 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:32.650 probably the first bit of the story that I came across, 00:04:32.650 --> 00:04:35.560 I probably discovered that when I was about 9 or 10 – 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:45.290 but I didn't really find out about Achilles and Agamemnon and Menelaus and all those characters until later on, 00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:50.990 when I was doing my A-levels and we did a play called Troilus and Cressida. 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:56.980 And it was though that play that I really started to discover about the full story of the Iliad 00:04:56.980 --> 00:04:59.660 as opposed to the wooden horse itself. 00:04:59.660 --> 00:05:00.750 And what about you Daniel, 00:05:00.750 --> 00:05:06.660 when did you first come across the war with Troy, and also the Odyssey? 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:10.350 As well as the comics that I was buying of Batman and Superman and so on, 00:05:10.350 --> 00:05:12.880 my parents would buy me this magazine, 00:05:12.880 --> 00:05:15.950 which they thought was a bit more educational. 00:05:15.950 --> 00:05:17.890 It was called Look and Learn. 00:05:17.890 --> 00:05:21.500 And in Look and Learn there were bits of science and bits of history, 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:24.880 and bits of sport and also bits of mythology: 00:05:24.880 --> 00:05:29.900 and they serialised the story of Odysseus in Look and Learn, 00:05:29.900 --> 00:05:32.020 and they started before the Odyssey, 00:05:32.020 --> 00:05:34.540 they started during the Trojan War. 00:05:34.540 --> 00:05:37.630 So that was when I first encountered the story of the Trojan War, 00:05:37.630 --> 00:05:41.640 as part of a longer story all about King Odysseus. 00:05:41.640 --> 00:05:42.920 As you say, Daniel, 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.690 these are very long stories, 00:05:45.690 --> 00:05:54.360 and I think people would be fascinated to know how you remember such long, epic tales? 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.110 Well, people always remember things that they're fascinated by. 00:05:58.110 --> 00:06:04.970 Some people can remember who won the World Cup in 1968 and who scored a goal at what point in the match, 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:12.680 and some people can remember the route they travelled when they drove their car from one side of England to the other. 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:14.670 I have always loved stories, 00:06:14.670 --> 00:06:21.220 and so I find it quite easy to remember the plots of stories that excite me. 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:21.880 Do you think – 00:06:21.880 --> 00:06:24.070 you described yourself a bit earlier walking round, 00:06:24.070 --> 00:06:30.900 and I can imagine you walking round the base of higher and higher mountains as your own stories got longer and longer – 00:06:30.900 --> 00:06:33.360 do you think that's because you think like a storyteller, 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:34.950 that you can remember, 00:06:34.950 --> 00:06:38.470 or do you think because you are a storyteller you can remember better? 00:06:38.470 --> 00:06:42.840 I think I am a storyteller because I love stories. 00:06:42.840 --> 00:06:48.240 So I think the starting point for me is an excitement with the story, 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:49.910 and that's how I can remember it, 00:06:49.910 --> 00:06:51.830 because I'm excited by it, 00:06:51.830 --> 00:06:53.630 I love to think about it. 00:06:53.630 --> 00:06:56.130 If I can't sleep then I think about stories, 00:06:56.130 --> 00:06:59.300 I go through stories in my mind as though I'm watching a video; 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.870 I try and imagine it all happening inside my mind. 00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:06.160 Is it similar for you, Hugh, how you remember stories? 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.460 Yes. As Daniel says, 00:07:08.460 --> 00:07:11.330 I think the stories are a language of pictures. 00:07:11.330 --> 00:07:13.350 The pictures are in front of the words: 00:07:13.350 --> 00:07:17.280 when you're listening to a story and you're really enjoying it, 00:07:17.280 --> 00:07:22.080 you're seeing it on that little television screen inside your forehead, 00:07:22.080 --> 00:07:23.920 your mind's eye. 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:25.900 So I think when I'm learning a story, 00:07:25.900 --> 00:07:27.690 I'm learning pictures first of all. 00:07:27.690 --> 00:07:29.130 First and foremost, 00:07:29.130 --> 00:07:30.560 a sequence of pictures, 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:32.160 one after the other, 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:39.380 and then the words wind themselves around the pictures and that's certainly how I remember. 00:07:39.380 --> 00:07:41.820 I haven't got a very good memory for other things, 00:07:41.820 --> 00:07:43.820 but I can remember stories. 00:07:43.820 --> 00:07:51.770 I think it's probably interesting for people to realise that actually you didn't have a script for this story, 00:07:51.770 --> 00:07:57.060 and the 12 episodes that are on the CDs that people listen to, 00:07:57.060 --> 00:07:59.730 you didn't write down as a script. 00:07:59.730 --> 00:08:03.320 So how do you remember when an episode starts and when it ends? 00:08:03.320 --> 00:08:05.800 Is there a particular technique, 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.990 or is each episode a story within a story for you? 00:08:08.990 --> 00:08:12.950 Yeah, each episode is a story inside a big story. 00:08:12.950 --> 00:08:18.310 When this story was first devised nearly 3000 years ago, 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:25.150 and written down about 2700 years ago, 00:08:25.150 --> 00:08:29.530 speaking and talking was the natural way of doing things, 00:08:29.530 --> 00:08:31.560 and writing was pretty rare. 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.260 So this is a very old story, 00:08:33.260 --> 00:08:37.790 does that mean something special to you, Daniel? 00:08:37.790 --> 00:08:40.730 I find it very exciting to think that, 00:08:40.730 --> 00:08:43.800 thousands of years ago, 00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:50.200 people would have been excited and moved and frightened by the same things 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:53.320 that excite and frighten and move us now. 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:54.540 I find that wonderful, 00:08:54.540 --> 00:09:01.970 to think that so many changes have happened in those thousands of years but basically people are the same. 00:09:01.970 --> 00:09:03.510 And I find that wonderful, 00:09:03.510 --> 00:09:11.400 to think that I'm a part of a chain of voices that has been telling this story for 3000 years. 00:09:11.400 --> 00:09:13.710 Is that a big motivator for you, Hugh? 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:16.440 Yes, absolutely, absolutely. 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:23.190 And if you imagine with this story that it was passed from father to son or from mother to daughter, 00:09:23.190 --> 00:09:27.180 then, to get back 3000 years, 00:09:27.180 --> 00:09:32.380 there would be 120 fathers behind me. 00:09:32.380 --> 00:09:40.550 It'd be my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-120-times grandfather standing at the back, 00:09:40.550 --> 00:09:42.390 first telling the story. 00:09:42.390 --> 00:09:47.570 And that's a tremendous journey for a story to make through time. 00:09:47.570 --> 00:09:49.470 And if you go right back, 00:09:49.470 --> 00:09:52.380 the person at the back or the front of the queue, 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:54.000 whichever way you think of it, 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:55.680 is somebody called Homer. 00:09:55.680 --> 00:10:03.480 And we don't know very much about Homer other than that it's called Homer's Iliad or Homer's Odyssey, 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:08.200 and the story of the war with Troy really comes from Homer's Iliad. 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:12.320 How've you worked with Homer's Iliad, 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:13.890 with his story, 00:10:13.890 --> 00:10:17.160 and made it your own, Hugh? 00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:21.160 Well, part of it is seeing the pictures for yourself. 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:26.800 Actually looking into the story and imagining it for yourself. 00:10:26.800 --> 00:10:29.600 But also we tell more than the Iliad. 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:34.930 The Iliad is really just a little section of the 10-year war. 00:10:34.930 --> 00:10:39.800 And what we tell with this story is the causes of the war right from the very beginning, 00:10:39.800 --> 00:10:43.900 right from when Peleus falls in love with Thetis, 00:10:43.900 --> 00:10:48.580 and we carry it on right through to the destruction of the city of Troy. 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:51.080 So, we're telling a much longer, 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:58.000 much broader story than the Iliad itself. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:08.650 And Daniel, is there anything about the language or the images or the poetry in the words that you've chosen 00:11:08.650 --> 00:11:12.710 that you know comes from Homer's original, 00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:16.800 and bits that you don't that you've added, maybe. 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:22.730 There are sections that are very, very close to Homer's Iliad. 00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:32.840 And then there are sections that we have taken from other Greek myths and put them in our version, 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:37.260 and then there are tiny sections that we have invented for ourselves. 00:11:37.260 --> 00:11:42.040 And every time we tell the story we change it in tiny ways. 00:11:42.040 --> 00:11:44.180 So, every time we tell it, 00:11:44.180 --> 00:11:47.940 it's a little bit different from the time we told it last time. 00:11:47.940 --> 00:11:52.220 So, in that way it stays fresh for us, and changes. 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:59.160 So, our telling of the Iliad is a blend of all these different elements: 00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:00.450 some from Homer; 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:03.400 some from other Ancient Greek myths; 00:12:03.400 --> 00:12:07.440 and some from our feelings today, 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.240 our moods today, 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:11.760 and what's been happening in the news, 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:15.610 that might make us emphasise a moment in the story that we'd never ever emphasised before 00:12:15.610 --> 00:12:20.650 because it seems as though that moment in the story is the same as what's been happening in the news. 00:12:20.650 --> 00:12:26.610 So all of those things combine to form a performance on a particular day. 00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:32.650 One of the things that is true of the voice of Homer that we've held onto 00:12:32.650 --> 00:12:34.930 is what are called the similes. 00:12:34.930 --> 00:12:38.360 And it's those moments when, for example, 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:44.440 the Trojans on the city walls are looking at the Greek camp and they see the Greeks busy about their business 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:50.680 like flies around the cowsheds in the spring when the pails are creamy white with milk. 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:52.800 Or there's another moment, 00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:56.440 when the Trojans horses kick down the wooden palisade 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.680 as a little boy on the sea shore might kick down a sandcastle. 00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:03.660 And those similes are very true of the Iliad, 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:09.320 and we liked them so much that we wanted to keep them in our version. 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.360 Another thing to remember is that Homer, 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:13.400 as far as we know, 00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:15.970 would probably have sung this story, 00:13:15.970 --> 00:13:18.360 so during our telling, 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:19.910 you will hear us say 00:13:19.910 --> 00:13:21.420 "if I could sing, 00:13:21.420 --> 00:13:23.490 I would sing of Agamemnon" 00:13:23.490 --> 00:13:24.440 and so on. 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:30.250 So what we're doing is we’re trying to remember the way that the story was first performed, 00:13:30.250 --> 00:13:32.050 as best we can, 00:13:32.050 --> 00:13:35.000 through that tiny little sentence. 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:40.760 So those are some ways you've tried to be faithful to what Homer wrote down, 00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:46.960 even though Homer's Iliad is only a small part of the story that you tell of the war with Troy. 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.790 I know you try to keep it secret, Daniel, 00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:53.940 but can you tell us any of the little bits that you've added that are your own? 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:56.140 In the story, 00:13:56.140 --> 00:14:01.060 there is a very crucial ring. 00:14:01.060 --> 00:14:05.380 There is a ring that is carved in the shape of a curling arrow, 00:14:05.380 --> 00:14:09.050 whose sharp point touches its feathered tail. 00:14:09.050 --> 00:14:10.410 A golden ring, 00:14:10.410 --> 00:14:13.640 and it's passed from one character to another. 00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:15.970 And we invented that ring. 00:14:15.970 --> 00:14:19.170 It is not in any of the old Greek stories. 00:14:19.170 --> 00:14:25.950 But rings like that do feature often in fairy tales and myths from other places, 00:14:25.950 --> 00:14:31.030 so we put it in because it was very useful for us. 00:14:31.030 --> 00:14:35.000 And we feel as though we have the right to do that because 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:41.630 we know stories where rings do serve the purpose that they serve in the story that we're telling. 00:14:41.630 --> 00:14:44.320 I think that brings us on nicely to another question, actually, 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.910 for Hugh to start with, 00:14:46.910 --> 00:14:50.910 and it's the big question about all stories: 00:14:50.910 --> 00:14:58.210 it's that historians believe that parts of this story are true, they're real. 00:14:58.210 --> 00:14:59.520 But as storytellers, 00:14:59.520 --> 00:15:04.640 how true does this story feel to you? 00:15:04.640 --> 00:15:08.600 There's an old riddle that goes like this: 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:12.030 truth and lies live in the same house. 00:15:12.030 --> 00:15:14.780 And they both come out of the same door. 00:15:14.780 --> 00:15:18.810 And they both wipe their feet on the same doormat. 00:15:18.810 --> 00:15:21.750 What is the house? 00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:24.750 And the house is the head. 00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:30.900 And we all contain truth and falsehood inside our heads, 00:15:30.900 --> 00:15:33.110 and they both wipe their feet on the doormat, 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:35.420 which is our tongues. 00:15:35.420 --> 00:15:37.640 And so, as with all the stories, 00:15:37.640 --> 00:15:42.460 it's a tangle of things that are true and things that might not be true. 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:44.120 But I think, 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.620 whatever the historical facts of the story are, 00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:52.390 the story is true because it's true of things that happen. 00:15:52.390 --> 00:15:56.170 The characters have a truth about them. 00:15:56.170 --> 00:15:59.670 The questions that the story raises are true questions. 00:15:59.670 --> 00:16:02.420 Questions that people are still grappling with today, 00:16:02.420 --> 00:16:06.250 still wrestling with and trying to work out the answers to. 00:16:06.250 --> 00:16:09.830 So it's full of things that are true and, to me, 00:16:09.830 --> 00:16:13.310 I'm not really bothered about whether it's historically true or not, 00:16:13.310 --> 00:16:15.250 because that doesn't matter. 00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:22.810 But all the stories that are worth telling are true in some way or another. 00:16:22.810 --> 00:16:29.000 And Daniel, this story feels true to you? 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:33.950 If a story is exciting or frightening or funny, 00:16:33.950 --> 00:16:45.120 there is something in it that is true because it is connecting with us in some way. 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.300 And so, I feel the story is true, 00:16:47.300 --> 00:16:51.450 because every time I know I have to tell this story tomorrow, 00:16:51.450 --> 00:16:53.520 I get very excited about it. 00:16:53.520 --> 00:16:56.360 I get very excited at the thought of telling it, 00:16:56.360 --> 00:17:00.340 because there are things in it that make me feel frightened, 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:05.720 make me feel sad and make me laugh. 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:10.410 I think, also, that there's quite a lot of evidence that there was a Troy, 00:17:10.410 --> 00:17:16.750 and that there was at least one siege of that place, that city. 00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:25.210 Quite a lot of archaeologists have made excavations on the site of what probably was Troy. 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:27.840 And so, yes, 00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:31.830 it seems as though there is a certain amount of truth in the story, 00:17:31.830 --> 00:17:35.730 but that's not so important to me. 00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:36.740 And of course, 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:39.760 one story always leads to another story, 00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:43.280 and you've mentioned that Troy is a real place, 00:17:43.280 --> 00:17:45.910 and there's a real place called Ithaca, 00:17:45.910 --> 00:17:49.390 and Odysseus tries to go home there, 00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:56.290 and I hope that we'll be able to hear your story of the Odyssey and that homecoming — 00:17:56.290 --> 00:17:59.420 perhaps after we've heard the war with Troy. 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:01.280 So we look forward to that, 00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:04.470 and thanks very much for talking to us today. 00:18:04.470 --> 00:18:05.030 Thank you. 00:18:05.030 --> 00:18:08.260 Thank you.